Thursday 7 June 2012

Naughty nephew is subjected to early bedtime and pyjama discipline, infantilised and spanked by his strict aunty

This was about an aunt who subjected her nephew to early bedtime and pyjama punishment and wrote about it. Amusingly, some people took it seriously enough to vent their anger at his treatment.

I think I as his guardian know what is best for my nephew. I want him to act more responsible but if he behaves like a six year old then he deserves to be treated as one. The tantrums are all about attention seeking, which he doesn’t get when he is tucked up in bed. If you witnessed his unreasonable behaviour you would also spank him. He admits himself that he acts like a baby at times. As for choosing his own pyjamas, well that task appeared beyond him as he chose a horrible tee shirt and shorts combination with aggressive or vulgar motifs. All I ask is that he wears sensible warm pyjamas. The pyjamas I made were just from an oddment of flannel I had in my sewing box. They are no different to expensive "novelty" pyjamas I have seen advertised. He should be grateful and wear them (as he is at this very moment) regardless.

Posted by kateddmom on 2008-11-17 20:03:23
"I think I as his guardian know what is best for my nephew." I am not sure a court would agree. I believe in appropriate corporal punishment and corner time in a family, but this infantilising of your nephew sounds like it is for your emotional pleasure rather than for his healthy growth and development.
I agree with Suzy Cue and urge you to reconsider this abusive behaviour of yours.

Posted by Helen61 on 2008-11-17 20:35:46
I strongly resent and reject the term "abusive behaviour". My nephew is spanked certainly, but a few slaps of his pyjama clad bottom and ten minutes reflective time in the corner surely comply with your, "I believe in appropriate corporal punishment and corner time in a family, "
In regard to my infantilising my nephew, I believe he is acting this way on purpose for my attention. Early bedtimes and wearing his pyjamas will not harm him. He obeyed my house rules without question until recently and is currently conforming to my punishment, something I could not physically force him to do against his will.

Posted by bgt 08021991 on 2008-11-17 21:27:27
I agree wholly with Suzy cue + kateddmom.
Spanking and other physical abuse is no way to treat a human being.
He is 15 not 10 so I think that his "bedtime" of 8pm is very early. I think at that age he should be allowed to stay up to 10pm on school nights and 11pm on weekends & in school holidays. Also he should be allowed to go out with friends on Friday & Saturday evening not cooped up dressed in his pyjamas by 6 pm. the most important thing is that he gets the correct amount of sleep not endless hours.
I dread to think about the other things you restrict him from doing. Oh yeah by the way helen61 you are not a good guardian whatever you may think!
Posted by Rico Suave on 2008-11-18 00:11:30
I also do not automatically associate spanking or corporal punishment with physical abuse. Under what kind of circumstances did he arrive in your life? Perhaps it would be appropriate to supply for us some background in order to put the situation in broader context.

I really don't agree with the people who are "deciding" appropriate times etc without more knowledge of the situation. Some people (like me for example) need a lot more sleep than others and early bedtimes are entirely right. But to be punished by being sent to bed even earlier is a very effective punishment I can assure you! Steven

Posted by Nanny Golightly on 2008-11-18 21:00:41
Perhaps there has been an overreaction here. Over the years I have put boys and girls to bed at a time that is too early for their age as a deliberate punishment. "You are going straight to bed when I get you home young man" is a phrase I have used to strike fear into many a misbehaving girl or boy. And yes, putting them into their pyjamas early is a valuable tool for making the miscreant feel childish. This doesn't mean that I am a maniac, just a bit old-fashioned in my ways. Don't condemn without knowing all the facts. This young man is being punished harshly perhaps but cruelly no.

Posted by david19008 on 2008-11-18 23:37:40
This is a perfect example as to why there are so many messed up kids in our society. There are millions of adults who don't know to parent CORRECTLY!

Posted by YLee on 2008-11-19 01:10:44
Upon reading this poll, I immediately wondered about who is the immature one -- the lad or the aunt. With the most unreasonable bedtimes and inappropriate pyjamas it is no wonder that he is a problem.
You are setting conditions for him that are in conflict with his biorhythms -- boys and girls of that age don't get tired until the middle of the night so all your doing is causing internal conflicts. A few more rational school district found that starting high school later -- nine rather the seven or eight -- resulted in improved grades because the students got more sleep.
Dressing a young man in a baby's outfit and parading him in front of your ladies friends is cruel and abusive humiliation. A young man is not a lap dog to impress your friends with. The selection of a t-shirt and underpants are a normal selection for a youth when nightclothes are needed because of circumstances.
Just because you became a mother three years ago, does not make him three years old. You missed twelve years of his growing up but he did not. Even your choice of words -- "I generously agreed to extending his school night bedtime to 8pm from 7.30pm" -- speaks volumes about you. You have made him a prisoner. You have stopped his social life. One must assume that some major event put this unfortunate lad into your abusive hands. You would do well to determine what rules his peers have. You missed the parenting experiences of many years, which would have let you see how he changed over the years and now must have more, not less, freedom. Yes, he will make mistakes but that is part of growing up. Stop him now; he will still make them but later with more dire consequences. I will suggest that after that major event, he needed a lot of TLC.
It is normal and necessary for his proper development for him to push your limits. You continue such treatment long enough he will explode with violence and running away.
I note that you have never made mention of any other problem -- not school and not home -- except bedtime. That implies that he is good.
A daily spanking is absolutely abusive and pointless. Permanent grounding is a permanent horror.
I strongly recommend that your seek advice from parents in your community and parenting books.

Posted by kateddmom on 2008-11-19 08:20:01
That is very well said, Y. Lee. Some comments point out that we do not know all the circumstances and this is true. But no circumstances could justify this abusive behaviour. Taking on the responsibilities of a parent means putting his healthy growth and development ahead of any desires you have to use him as a plaything for your amusement under the guise of discipline. He is not a doll to play with, dress up, and show off to your friends. Your cruelty seems an expression of your own emotional immaturity, not anything he could possibly need or deserve. You are on the path of making him incapable of healthy adult relationships in the future. For his sake, grow up!
I am aware that many of these polls reflect the sexual fantasies of their creators rather than reality. I hope that is the case here.

Posted by totoro on 2008-11-19 14:41:52
I agree with the last few comments. If this is true (I suspect it isn't), this is absolute abuse. Children and teenagers are still human beings. Only insecure control freaks would subject someone to such humiliation. I hope that the nephew in this case will be able to work all of this out so he doesn't become extremely messed up himself and pass this sort of behaviour on. No wonder why we have so many messed up people in society-it is because of parents/guardians like this.
These sorts of extreme control issues are best worked out with consenting adults.
Posted by Marty21 on 2008-11-19 18:50:18
I think you should all take a step back and realise that this, like 99% of these types of polls are wind-ups. I suggest the last "question" involving the velvet Lord Fauntleroy suit was the biggest giveaway. How could you make a fifteen year old wear any kind of nightwear they didn't want to let alone something so absurd as a velvet suit? By acting so outraged you are merely playing the game she, or more likely he, has devised and is probably chortling at your naivety right now.

Posted by kateddmom on 2008-11-19 20:36:22
You are probably right, Marty. But some may read this and interpret it, as normalizing a kind of parenting that is destructive and pathological. Such things as this do happen. I am thinking of Joan Crawford as a particularly cruel--some would say evil--mother.
And boys, even at 15, can be brought to a level of submission where they accept things that they have the physical strength to resist especially if they are cut off from the outside world.
Still, I usually take things like this as fantasy and don't get riled up. I might even enjoy them if they are about consenting adults. But this is about a child--so either it's an accurate description of a horrendous situation...or it is child porn.

Posted by Hi007 on 2008-11-19 22:59:48
Something is wrong with this lady, I'm 15 now and I go to bed at 10:00 on school nights and 11:00 on weekends and I've turned out fine. The reason he's giving the tantrums is because she's not letting him grow up. There's nothing wrong with the kid, there's something wrong with the woman. Besides I would make fun of him if I found out that happened to him if I knew him. So she's got to let him grow up and let go or he's going to hate her later in life because of what she's doing now. If she doesn’t want that she's got to start letting go or it will happen. I've heard of that happening to kids and the parents regret everything that they did.

Posted by totoro on 2008-11-20 04:37:43
Marty21: You do realise, of course, that I mentioned that I suspect that this situation isn't even for real. Unfortunately, there are parents who like to humiliate their children for punishment though, so that's why I did my rant on this topic.

My son is 22 and lives at home with me by his own choice. I do his washing and ironing, provide all meals cooked to his liking and still make his bed for him. He lost a very good job by going out, staying out late and not getting up for work in the morning. Now he has a much poorer paid job and has to be there for 7pm. At my insistence he now has to put on his pyjamas and slippers as soon as he comes in from work at 4pm and go to bed at 8.30 so he can get up in time although I still have to rouse him. He accepts this because he realises that his former lifestyle was destroying him.

Posted by YLee on 2008-11-21 01:54:19
Mrs Kirtley I don't think the situation is the same for your son. It sounds like he works 7-4 (8 hr + lunch) so he needs to leave for work about 6:15 so getting up time is 5:30. If he needs 9 hours sleep, then a bedtime of 8:30 is right. But, I note, you are not subjecting him to ridiculous and inappropriate clothes and behaviours although being in pyjamas three hours before bedtime seem a little early.
Together you and your son are working together to develop good habits. Helen61 is feeding her own ego by abusing her nephew.
Posted by kateddmom on 2008-11-21 03:55:36
I totally agree. The other distinction is that Mrs. Kirtley's son is an adult.

Posted by Helen61 on 2008-11-22 00:13:20
Apart from a few hysterical reactions most of the voters seem to approve of my disciplinary methods. I have decided that Michael will be prepared for bed as soon as he returns home from school and will go to bed at 6pm. On Friday and Saturday his bedtime will be an hour later but he will be dressed in his pyjamas from 3pm on Saturday and Sunday. This has been Michael's schedule for the last two nights and so far it has gone quite smoothly. He has worn his new pyjamas without any major objections just as he will wear the two new pairs I am busy cutting out. To those who accuse me of babying I can tell you that he helped pick the material for his new jim-jams and he was excited about wearing them and therefore I can see no reason to allow him his big boys pyjamas any longer. He fully understands the reasoning behind his punishment and Michael always gives me a voluntary affectionate kiss and cuddle before I tuck him into beddy-byes. Michael has been bullied at school lately so he needs me to take care of him more than ever. I am planning to move from this area so Michael and I can start afresh without busybody's interfering. I will not review Michael’s bedtime before he is seventeen so he will have enough opportunity to become used to his new bedtime.

Posted by Confinedtodiapers on 2008-11-22 01:06:43
Sounds like a good candidate for Diaper Discipline. He should be put back in diapers until he acts his age. confinedtodiapers@comcast.net

Posted by kateddmom on 2008-11-22 01:48:03
I did not read anything hysterical, just some persuasive arguments that for the sake of your nephew I hoped you would consider and take seriously--assuming this is not all just a sexual fantasy and way to rile people up. Otherwise, I can only hope someone reports to Child Protective Services what is going on. (As someone said, eventually your nephew will tell someone at school and word will get to the authorities.) Let them and the court decide if what you are doing is responsible parenting or child abuse.
As for your nephew submitting docilely to this bizarre regime, I am reminded of the Stockholm syndrome and Patty Hearst.

Posted by Helen61 on 2008-11-22 09:41:33
Posted by kateddmom on 2008-11-05 18:45:32
"I am a strict mother-in-law and a strong believer in keeping young wives and adult daughters in line. If they act like naughty little girls, they will be treated as such in our home. Two of my three girls received their first spankings, from their FIL-to-be, even before their wedding day. "
I refer you to the posting above.
Posted by kateddmom on 2008-11-22 21:25:15
Yes Helen, that is my point exactly with reference to Mrs. Kirtley. My DILs are grown married women aged 23 and 34, not children for whom I am responsible in a real parental role. Can you not tell the difference?
Posted by Helen61 on 2008-11-23 00:41:33
Kate, I understand your position. But let me be clear, Michael requires my guidance now. I cannot afford to wait until he is of majority age, by then it could be too late and a decent young man could fall into a life of delinquency. I then would be the one guilty of failing in my duty of care. I am sorry if my methods are unpalatable to you and others but rest assured, I will do anything to ensure Michael becomes the man he is destined to be.

Posted by YLee on 2008-11-24 18:32:34
I've already expressed my horror at this but since bulling was mentioned I will add this. A boy is put at increased risk to be the target of bullies when he is (1) perceived as a baby or otherwise weak and (2) is without friends. When the 'lady friends' talk about the cute baby pyjamas the former will be true. With such an early bedtime, he hadn't a chance to make friends. Please note I said increased risk not certainty and there are a lot of other reasons and factors.
Young. Bryce makes a valid point and PaulJ is absolutely right that it is total irrelevant that his spelling is original. We don't know what his mother tongue and it may not be English. This point was even made in the movie "Witness for the Prosecution" about English not being required for valid, useful and worthwhile testimony before the King's Justices.
As a comparison, I give the link to this article in the New York Time by a mother talking about her son's changing from a little boy to a young man in the great big city and how it affected her. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/nyregion/thecity/23son.html

Posted by Vanessa Clark on 2008-11-26 12:52:14
If only there were more non-nonsense guardians like you, this world would be a better place.

Posted by Helen61 on 2008-11-26 19:56:59
Well-said Vanessa. Michael is safely tucked up in bed now but he sends you a night- night kiss as a thank you.

Posted by Mitt on 2008-11-26 21:12:56
I think you are doing a very good job raising Michael. From what I see, young hoodlums running around at night causing trouble, some as young as 12, with no parental control drinking, taking drugs, etc you deserve praise. If they were all in bed like Michael it would be a safer place. My suggestion is, as Michael likes his pyjamas you should consider putting him into a nighties as a punishment. I bet he would find it humiliating to wear a long pink flannelette nightie or how about a pair of girl’s pyjamas, either would be a good punishment. Also on those days when he is irritable I suggest a nice soapy enema to calm him down. It worked with our children.

Posted by Katiep on 2008-11-30 15:38:56
Dear Helen. I think you are doing a fantastic job in having a bedtime for Michael. I also applaud you for ensuring he wears sensible pyjamas. My husband has had a bedtime set by my mother and me since we were married. I am an agent for a cosmetics firm and visit people in the evening. My mother comes over and makes sure my husband puts his pyjamas on whilst I am getting ready. Mother usually puts him to bed at seven although this can be sooner if he misbehaves. When I am not working I send him to bed at about eight. I do think that an earlier bedtime may be in the offing after reading your admirable stance on discipline. Mother has already said she will help me and may possibly move in. Keep up the good work.

Posted by kateddmom on 2008-11-30 18:28:44
If adults want to spice up their marriage with consensual kinkiness like Katie's, fine. But Helen is talking about a child, a minor, and a boy of 15. What chance does he have of growing into a strong, healthy adult with a good marriage if he is sissified by his aunt in this way, and apparently denied any kind of social life of his own?
But obviously you enjoy this sort of female domination, Katie, and so does Helen. Again, like others I suspect this a sexual fantasy rather than a report of real parenting. I certainly hope so.

Posted by Helen61 on 2008-12-01 19:56:01
Thank you Katie for your words of encouragement. You are not the first to tell me that they impose a bedtime on their husband. I have also had mothers and other guardians telling me they too have previously or are implementing early bedtimes as a punishment. To Kate I say again, Michael is not being mistreated and very recently declined the opportunity to remove himself from my care.
Posted by Spanked @19 on 2008-12-23 02:32:27
Dear Ma'am: My mother would agree with your methods completely. I believe your nephew will learn from his punishments that when he does as he is told, the punishments will end.
I am now 20 and still get an early bedtime after a spanking. This normally happens once a week. When I have to lie in bed hour after hour on a Friday afternoon with the lights out and dark curtains pulled, I feel so ashamed.
David

Posted by ian-k on 2008-12-27 16:44:06
This appears to me to be the basis of a paraphilic relationship. As mentioned previously it is not unusual for a dominant personality to completely dictate the living conditions of another person to the extent of appearing ridiculous to an outsider. The early bedtimes and the insistence of childish pyjama wearing, indicate a level of infantilism that cannot be ignored. It is possible that the male is older and the scenario is merely adult role-play. However, there are many documented cases of similar real life situations. A young woman went to live with her older partner in a lesbian relationship. Soon she was forced to sleep in a cot and effectively imprisoned by being forced to wear leather mittens. She was put into nappies and made to call her lover mama. She eventually managed to get a message out and was rescued. But not all cases are down to coercion and this possibly may be one. Even if the male known here as Michael is only fifteen years old it would be hard to prove any wrongdoing. If he willingly goes to bed regardless of the time then that is his own business. Again, he, like anyone, can wear whatever he wants to bed, pyjamas or nighties or anything. It is up to him. We assume the female Helen is the protagonist, this may not be the case and it may be her that is being manipulated to satisfy the paraphilic fantasies of the male Michael.

Reply
Posted by kateddmom on 2008-12-27 22:26:00
These are all good points and we do not know what the real situation is. But if the boy is indeed fifteen, then attributing this to his manipulative behaviour sounds a lot like blaming a child for being sexually molested because she is provocative or seductive. The adult is still the responsible party and a 15-year old, even in the U.K. I believe, is still a minor and below the age of consent. It is the parent's responsibility to look out for the child's best interests, not to play along with his fantasies.

Posted by ian-k on 2008-12-28 19:11:26
If the male was 18 it could be a case of his fantasy being fulfilled. If he is genuinely a minor it is unusual behaviour but as I said difficult to establish genuine mistreatment. For a start I would discount the part about the velvet suit, this embellishment would indeed attract too much attention if someone were seen out and about in such garb. The bedtime and nightwear scenario could well be true. But as I suggest, if I asked a 15 year old what time he went to bed and if he wore pyjamas and received the reply, "I go to bed at 6PM and wear Bob the Builder pyjamas." I may well be surprised but without evidence of abuse or assault would be hard pressed to prove otherwise. Not taking sides here just pointing out the difficulties.

Posted by kateddmom on 2008-12-28 22:25:24
For me the question is not about what would stand up in court. It is whether the behaviour described here is an acceptable method of parenting. In my view it is immoral and irresponsible on the part of Aunt Helen, who is the responsible adult. We cannot know what the outcome will be for sure, but we can say that it puts at risk the young man's healthy growth and development. Given the potential impact on his future adult relationships for the rest of his life, that is no small matter.
Posted by ian-k on 2008-12-29 00:08:37
I agree entirely. If Aunt Helen is genuine then her actions are totally immoral. However it is unlikely we will ever discover the resolution.

Posted by Helen61 on 2008-12-30 00:23:21
What nonsensical psychobabble this is. I have had a chuckle at these attempts to analyse my relationship with Michael. Suffice to say he thinks it is as amusing as I do. As gifts at Christmas he received two new pairs of pyjamas. His favourites are the yellow-brushed cotton pair sporting spaceships blasting off into space as an attractive motif. They are lovely and cosy for him to wear to bed and he looks ever so sweet wearing them although they are a little too large at the moment. Still, there is plenty of time for him to grow into them. Throughout the Christmas holiday Michael has happily been putting his pyjamas on at 6.30pm after which we have played ludo or snakes and ladders until his bedtime at 8.30pm, a special Christmas concession I conceded. The exception was Christmas Eve when we attended the late night service. I will no doubt be accused of all manner of things when I tell you he wore his school uniform for the service including his new school shorts. I have decided upon his return to school on Monday he will revert to wearing the regulation grey flannel shorts that are still part of the official uniform. They have merely fallen out of fashion. I consider them much more appropriate for Michael to wear than long trousers. Indeed he will not be the first boy to return to wearing shorts as the Headmaster encourages their use. On Sunday evening Michael will prepare for going back to school by reverting back to a 6pm bedtime with pyjamas being put on immediately after his afternoon bath at around 3pm. Michael is entirely happy and supportive of my actions regarding his bedtimes so please no more pseudo psychology.

Reply
Posted by kateddmom on 2008-12-30 08:51:23
I am still not sure whether this woman is evil, stupid, or a fraud. She obviously enjoys taunting us with her real or imagined fantasy wickedness, of which she seems to have little or no understanding. I for one do not intend to play along any more.

Posted by jjohn on 2009-01-31 14:19:39
Just because you don’t know any guys that wear pyjamas at that age doesn't make it wrong. Pyjamas are just proper bedtime attire. Making a young man put on his pyjamas early is a good method of discipline. Maybe if more people did this with their children this country wouldn’t have the severe juvenile crime problem that we now have. I live in Florida; the juvenile crime problem is out of control, if these teens were home in pyjamas under parental control, they wouldn’t be in juvenile detention centres in a jump suit. Making a young man put on his pyjamas early due to an unacceptable behaviour is good. I would much rather see my children in pyjamas than an orange jump suit.

Posted by jjohn on 2009-01-31 14:23:42
How it is it immoral to make an out of control teen wear his pyjamas early and go to bed early. We have used that same punishment, it works well. How many children have you raised...

Posted by jjohn on 2009-01-31 14:38:32
I wonder who is the freak? Spanking is not illegal at all, the law clearly states spanking is an ok method if discipline provided marks are not left on the child’s body that last over twenty four hours. I am a foster parent. We are not allowed to spank so we use pyjamas and early bedtime discipline. It works.
Posted by cid22 on 2009-02-25 12:35:38
Helen it would seem that you do care for your nephew as I am guessing it would be a lot easy not to do these things and whilst I can't see any big problem in being ready for bed or in bed early I am a little worried that from reading some of your postings that there is noting that say you show him you care for him. There is not a lot of talk of affection or positively when he is not bad. By the way does he know you are talking about him on here?

Posted by Helen61 on 2009-02-25 17:43:46
I refer you to my post of 2008-12-30 00:23:21. Michael receives plenty of love and affection not least when he is dressed in his pyjamas and being cuddled as we sit together and talk during his quiet time before bed.

Posted by cid22 on 2009-02-26 02:42:51
OK then, there are a lot of messages here and many of them say pretty much the same thing. I am glad to hear it is not all about punishments. To some extent an early bed time is not really a punishment as such so I can see the thinking behind it and to not do it every night would some what remove the point of doing it at all. The spankings would seem to me a little different. Is he still being spanked every night? If so what is your reasoning behind this? As it would seem to me that a spanking is clearly nothing other than an act of punishment and to do it every night regardless of if he has been good or not would seem to only do harm, as he will only take it few ways. Either he will think you are punishing him just for being him, which may well lead to low self-esteem and the feeling that he is just a bad person, or it will make him think that there is no point in being good as he will be punished regardless. This will also reduce the impact of any punishment you give him for being bad. I am sorry if I seem like I am being preachy but you did come on here to talk about this so I guess you are looking for some input. I get the feeling you are trying to do what you think is right so I thought it would be an idea to maybe give you a little bit to think about. I know there is a lot of people who think you are 'evil' or something for doing this but on some level it is nice to see that some one is taking time to raise their child the best way they can. Also, as a possible word of support, there are parts of what you say you are doing that I not think it would be a bad thing if more people did. For a start keeping kids in pyjamas for a little longer may help to stop them growing up so fast (more so in girls I feel) and I for one would have been a lot happier if I was tucked up in bed more and for longer, even if I may not have openly said so at the time! Lol.

Posted by Helen61 on 2009-02-27 19:55:42
Hello there
No. Michael is no longer being spanked at bedtime, as that was part of his punishment for staying out later than we agreed. Similarly his bedtime is more flexible and not rigid because he appears to have learned his lesson. I reserve the right as his guardian to impose bedtimes and spankings as I see fit. After all, I support him and he lives by my rules in my house. As I have stated elsewhere, I could do nothing to prevent his leaving if he wished. Similarly I believe that it is proper that pyjamas are worn at bedtime and I insist upon it in my home. What other people do in their homes is entirely their own affair. Michel does indeed wear pyjamas that I have made for him that are possibly of a design more suitable for younger boys, but again I believe they are appropriate in controlling his behaviour so therefore he will wear them for the foreseeable future. You can purchase the same pyjamas for adults in most department stores described as novelty one’s.

Posted by Spanked @19 on 2009-02-28 18:19:03
Mrs. Kirtley: My mother would agree with your methods I am 20 and at college. Mother also makes me go to bed early when I have an early class. When she is punishing me on a Friday, she often puts me to bed by 5.00 p.m. I only have one class that day and I meet mother in town at 11am to shop. Upon our return home mother makes me take a bath whilst she gets my pyjamas ready for me to put on. I have my lunch, which is actually my supper at 2pm dressed in my pyjamas. My bedtime is then dependent on my behaviour that week. She consults the, “misbehaviour” book where she writes down anything I have done that displeases her. This determines my bedtime and the severity of my bedtime spanking. I actually prefer to be put to bed before 5.00 pm as her book club assembles at 4.00pm. If I am still up I have to greet them and take their coats. Since I am wearing pyjamas I find this extremely embarrassing, especially as the ladies find my appearance very amusing; a 20 year old ready for bed at 4.pm.




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